(This interview took place in my 12-year-old SAAB 900i after the show.)
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The godlike show tonight (24/10/98) with The Countdowns was completely different than the one I saw in Utrecht in 1996, where you made a rather modest impression with the Eldorados.
That was George Paulus from St. George Records and he was all fucked up! You know he wanted to make me a nostalgic blues artist; old motherfucker comin’ outta the cane! But I told him I AM NOT GONNA BE NO JUNIOR WELLS OR ALL O’THEM OLD BLUES MOTHERFUCKERS! George said « Oh, but I want you to sing the blues » but I said « I’m not gonna sing the blues, goddammit! » The man’s a fuckin’ bigot! He’s an old 1929 hippy bigot motherfucker and he thinks that niggers is something you put in a cage and who you take out to do the dance and put back in the cage when going back home.
But wasn’t he also the man who put new life into your career?
Well, I’ve got to give him that credit but I still don’t like him. He’s an asshole! Billy Miller (OF THE NYC BASED NORTON RECORDS COMPANY) is the man. George Paulus is a scumbag, Billy Miller is the answer to Andre Williams and you never have to give it to George. George was just shootin’-the-dice. Billy Miller was after something real; him and Miriam. Period. Case closed. Quote me on that!
So how did you come in touch with Norton Records?
Margareth from The Demolition Doll Rods called the man, the man called me and we talked. I’ve got to give her credit for that.
Your 1995 comeback album was issued as ‘Fat Back & Corn Liquor’ on CD by St. George Records and as ‘Greasy’ on vinyl by Norton Records with slightly different track line-ups. Larry Hardy from In The Red Records released the follow-up album ‘Silky’’ in 1998. When...
(interrupts) Oh yeah, Larry’s my man! That is my brother. That is my sweetheart brother. The only president of a record company that you can call in his bedroom and he answers the phone and he says « What’s the problem? ». You don’t have to talk to nobody‘s vice-president. You know, we got a personal thing. I love him. Larry is a nice guy but he ain’t no goddamn fool, you understand what I mean? Larry give you the sweat off his balls but you can’t trick him. And me and him just hooked up. Larry is the whole bag of potato chips (laughter)
Unfortunately, Larry is an exception to the rule as most people in the record business are only in it for the money. I suppose you didn’t receive any royalties from the Regency bootleg of your famous Fortune stuff...
I’ve seen the guy who released the Regency bootleg in Utrecht. He gave me a 1000 dollars and than he beat me outta five years royalties but I’m gonna go see him. And he knows I’m gonna go and see him. He knows he better talk to me before I’m leaving Europe.
Debora Brown from Fortune Records will get a heart attack when she finds out!!
It don’t even matter about the Browns ‘cuz this guy totally fucked me. Now the Browns ain’t got nothing to do with this. This is a man to man thing, this is me and him. He must bring me some money.
Rumour has it that the people at Fortune Records ask an awfull lot of money for a Fortune license which is a real shame ‘cuz quality labels like Norton Records, Ace Records or Westside Records could have done a wonderful re-issuing job with Fortune’s back catalogue.
The Browns heard that Motown sold out for 280 million dollars so they asked for 280 million dollars too but they were no goddamn Motown! Those people could never talk to you straight in the face. Debora is 90 & some fucking years old and her son is a dummy, so they still got that price in their minds that is not realistic.
Do you get royalties from major labels? I was wondering as I just bought the 2CD Blue Rock anthology, released by Polygram. (2 YEARS LATER, THIS ITEM WAS ALREADY DELETED BY MERCURY RECORDS!)
I didn’t even know about the Blue Rock recordings being re-released. I’m glad you told me. So that’s gonna probably add another low twitch to my career.
If I would have known I’d brought the 2CD along tonight.
I wish you had, I would have love to hear that Joyce Kennedy record man. I can’t find it nowhere. I think it’s one of the greatest records ever made. Joyce Kennedy… she was no taller than this car OK ( MY 20 YEAR OLD SAAB 900 THAT WAS) ? Little short girl but this girl’s mind was 20 years ahead of her body! If I had been… no I mustn’t say that… (hesitates). Joyce Kennedy was the next Dinah Washington and I knew it but they did not want to give me my prophecy. You see I had my own publishing company and I got involved in their business and they didn’t like it. I was getting too many pennies instead of me just giving producer pennies, I also got publishing pennies, writer’s pennies and they said oh no no this guy is trying to be too slick. So than they chopped me down. And I kept saying hey man looka here you’re killing this girl man. I took this girl to 3 labels and neither of the 3 labels would see the talent in that girl until she went to Mother’s Finest and that didn’t go where she was supposed to go. Joyce Kennedy should be as big as Diana Ross and that is my opinion and I have seen both of them chicks and Diana Ross can not touch Joyce Kennedy’s fingernails today. Haven’t seen Joyce in maybe 30 years though.
« My hifi albums and I » is definitely one of the greatest songs ever. Where did the weird lyrics come from?
Where does it come from? Artistry man! But at that time the game ran the show. You could be the most sincere artist in the world but if your record company or your manager or your producer wouldn’t pay them dogs off you wouldn’t get your records played. It wasn’t anything else man. It was ‘click’ and like it is now. Every record company is owned by a motion picture company.
Talking about payola?
That is the word! That is the word and if you didn’t do it you wouldn’t get your shit getting played and than you can not sell records unless you can get them played. The greatest record in the world will not sell if nobody hears it. Don’t that make sense to you? Ridiculous, that girl should have been a superstar. Joyce Kennedy should have been the next Dinah Washington but it didn’t happen because she was connected with me and I was intimidating a lot of them presidents ‘cuz I took my pants off, jumped up on that desk and told them to kiss my ass. So a lot of things could have happened but didn’t happen because of my attitude which I mellowed down a little more now. I can deal with people a little better but I still don’t go for no bullshit.
If you talk about payola in Detroit in the 50’s, you must be talking about Joe Van Battle…
Exactly! In the 50’s, Joe Van Battle had thè black record shop in Detroit. Very funky attitude. Bourgois ass nigger, and I said it. He did not think that Andre Williams would make it to the corner. Him and a few more like Berry Gordy… you know, I respect Berry Gordy but I don’t like him. I like Ike Turner but I don’t respect him. You see the difference? So I ain’t got no time for them guys that got lucky. Joe Van Battle got lucky. He didn’t hustle for his money. It was handed to him on a silver fucking platter. I mean he didn't have to get our hands scraped and run up and down these highways to make a living. You know, he clicked in with these guys that had things going good, he was the bad man for a lot of them record companies that didn’t want to get busted for payola so they gave it to Joe and Joe gave it to the deejay. So he was their little pussy. Sorry I said it but that’s what I meant.
Who were the artists you believed the most in as A&R man?
Joyce Kennedy & The Dramatics. The Dramatics was my heart, that was my group. I gave them to Don Davis because I couldn’t get a break. They wouldn’t let me get them over so I gave them to a guy who the white boys liked. You know, they didn’t like me man.
Who?
The white boys with the money. I was arrogant but it was my own fault. I didn’t want to play their games you know.
Your attitude also made you famous. Nolan Strong was a wonderfull singer for example but it is said he had no stage presence.
Nolan Strong & The Diablos didn’t have anything going. All they could do was sing and I had to do more than sing man. I had to learn the business. That’s what I was into. I was into..
Entertainment!!!
Hell yeah, I had to learn licensing and publishing and producing and writing. I didn’t come into this stuff just to get some pussy, you know. This is a career!
It is said that at a certain time in the 50’s, you had 2 different bands at the same time.
Three! I was just a marketing genius, man. When the others had 3 records a year, I would have 12!
So you had the 5 Dollars and the Don Juans?
And Andre Williams as a solo performer! So that was 12 records a year adverse to everybody else getting 3 a year.
Was that the only reason?
No, it was the reason that white people was buying Andre Williams, black people was buying the Five Dollars. And I was easing in on the country & western with Andre Williams and the shit was working you know, that kinda thing. But than it fell apart because the people from Fortune Records were crazy. Nuts! Insane! They didn’t wanna get rich.
Did you like FORTUNE’s primitive sound at the time?
No. I didn’t like it. I thought it was insane, you know. Because I could get the New York sound like the Drifters & Clyde McPhatter & Screaming Jay. I mean they went outta Colombia man and that shit was just recorded. But everyday I went in a goddamn studio it was in the back of a damn store. Yeah I was frustrated about that. But it turned out to be the jewel. You know, you never know about this world man. I’m so glad it happens now 'cuz Screamin Jay’s records don’t sell for 500 dollars a copy! That is if you still can find some of mine… And I didn’t know nothing about this man until Margareth pull on my coat…
Can you tell us some more about Nathaniel Mayer?
I don’t even wanna fuck with that. Because I’m not a put down man and Nathaniel is not one of my best. So I don’t even wanna fuck with that.
The Demolition Doll Rods played a song of him tonight..
So? That’s what they have been doing. Frankly I think he’s a crazy, insane motherfucker.
Is he still alive?
I have no idea, he probably is... (wants to quit the subject)
You could have made it big when the master from ‘Bacon Fat’ was purchased by Epic from Fortune in 1956. What happened?
That was the heartbreak of my life.
You had success and than Fortune didn’t want to release the follow-up? Was that it?
No, No, What happened was : They made a deal the way that Epic had an option on the second record but Fortune had the rights to give it to them. Now when Fortune caught ‘Bacon Fat’ they thought I was big enough to break their label nationally so they refused Epic the second record which was ‘Jail Bait’. It was hard enough to mess with ‘Jail Bait’ even on Epic let alone on a little pussy ass label so we got dumped. And that was the beginning of the hard chips. That was a bad decision on their part. They had Nolan Strong. If they had been thinking like an entrepreneur, they would have left me with Epic & kept Nolan as executive producer : they would have been millionaires! They had the 2 baddest motherfuckers in charge! But they didn’t see it because they were paranoid, man.
Sadly, the only way to hear your amazing Fortune stuff is by buying that bootleg stuff…
That’s pitiful and that’s what I am trying to stop. I’m trying to bring this garage music up to a level man. I want this garage music to all of a sudden have a page, like a popmusic page, a country & western page. I don’t want these kids sleeping in cars, man these kids have been dogged, these kids have been used worse than I was back in slavery. A 150 dollars a night is no money to give 5 goddamn people to live on, OK? And this is what’s been going on and it’s going to stop. It’s time to get some respect going on. Pay these kids man. These kids come over here overseas and they go back home and they got a 100 fuckin’ dollars for a 9 weeks tour. Get real!
Did you ever consider writing down all the stuff you have been releasing over the years?
No. I don’t consider. It’s like having babies man. You raise them and you send them to school and you cut them loose. You know this is a product to me and I don’t fall in love with no situation. I know what they meant to me and then I move on.
You also recorded a song called ‘Lap Dance’ with The Jon Spencer Blues Explosion.
Jon is in my heart. That’s the guy! That’s the balls! Like I told him « to open your show is like going to church on Sunday morning in a new suit » Hell yeah, I’ll open your show. I love this cat. I love Gino, Russel them 3 cats are just down wicked. They’re my guys! Man I would open a show for him in the middle of a warzone! This cat is just too good. He tries to help everybody plus the group is fire! Once Russel sit on them drums he don’t raise his head up until the show is over.
So you can identify yourself with those garage/punkrock bands?
Absolutely! They are my guys. The Doll Rods I like. I don’t like Margareth’s attitude, you gotta quote me on that! I love the Countdowns, Jon Spencer, The Church Keys, … there are about 6 acts that I love to death. Because I haven’t seen the rest of ‘em. These are the few that I’ve seen. These kids work there asses off and they don’t get no money and I don’t understand that.
It’s love for the music itself, I guess…
No, love produces children so it should produce money. Anytime love gets you a baby you know goddamn well that you get your 100 dollar bill. I heard that Jon toured here for nothing until he made his name. But look, you don’t have to do it the same way the guy did it before you. That’s the part that I don’t like when they say “Well, Jon had to sleep on my floor and he did it 2 or 3 times.” I don’t give a fuck. I’m not doing it 2 or 3 times before you pay me. I might do it once, but I’m not gonna do it 2 or 3 times. I’m 65 years old man – I intend to be a millionaire - I’m 61 take that back (laughter). At 65 I intend to be a millionaire, open me an institution, help kids in the music business, get a government grant to measure my million and sit down on my ass. I’m not gonna hit the road like Burnside until I’m 78! Fuck that! I give me another 4 years, I’m gonna kick ass and do all I can to get the money and than I’m gonna sit down and pay to the arts. I am not gonna be – never say never – I do not want to be a 66 year old entertainer. At 65 I wanna stop, Another 4 good years : kick ass, get the money and be a name in music history!
So this must be the highlight of your career.
No question about that! Not a highlight : this is a delight! I got people that love Andre Williams so I can never be a bummer again but I can be a star tomorrow. Make sense?
interview taken in my car outside the Lintfabriek in Kontich on 24/11/1998
here are some pictures of the Demolition Doll Rods who opened that crazy night...
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